Talk:Unleash

If I recall correctly, the text was reffering to critical hits, but I guess they are the same thing anyway: hope you don't mind if I add this last paragraph to the Attack page as well, Slax! --Caasi=noob 21:22, October 6, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it was referring to critical hits, but I just assumed they were close enough. The quote:

Ivan:I'm certain that was Psynergy we were projecting. That must mean that some Psynergy acts only when it's needed." Garet: "You mean, like when we're in danger? I think it's like when we strike critical hits in battle. We can't control it, but it's there when we need it." Ivan: "I can agree with what Garet is saying. It is definitely possible..." Garet: "Wouldn't it be something if we could use this power at any time, Isaac? (If Isaac says yes) Yeah! Let's start trying to master this power!" Slax01 21:32, October 6, 2009 (UTC)

This page should also discuss the difference between Crits and Unleashes, because sometimes Artefacts can still do crits, despite having an unleash effect. As an unrelated tangent, some time in the near future I'm going to overhaul this page with all the Japanese names for Unleashes, but that'll make the chart either fatter or longer. Marandahir 16:13, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Creating sub-pages?

Unleashes follow different rules in Dark Dawn, so we'll probably need separate lists for Dark Dawn unleashes and GBA unleashes. Do you guys think we should just go and create separate pages for the lists? We can make them sub-pages, like Unleash/Dark Dawn and Unleash/Golden Sun and The Lost Age. What do you guys think? HungryPaperweight 13:19, 3 January 2011 (CST)

It might be helpful to have either a brief overview page with two sub-pages or just separate pages all together. The entire unleash mechanic is different in Dark Dawn. Critical hits are no longer a separate thing and the weapon experience system alone requires at least a full paragraph to explain. One page isn't enough. Tzion 13:25, 3 January 2011 (CST)

That's kind of what I meant: A main page to discuss unleashes in general (both the old and new systems), then sub-pages for the lists of all the unleashes available. Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks that's a good idea ;) HungryPaperweight 13:34, 3 January 2011 (CST)

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I was starting to plan on embarking on a page creation binge working on a page for each Unleash, because of the new system. And now I hear Erik has uploaded all of the unleash gifs onto his photobucket? I think this is a project we can now deal with, if that's the case. I, for one, am in support of the 85 megabytes requires for adding those gifs to create a whole new series of content for the wiki. It's a way we really can grow; an area of Golden Sun that hasn't been fleshed out at GSU yet.Marandahir (talk) 16:09, 25 February 2014 (CST)

While all the gifs probably should be on the wiki itself so that they can illustrate unleash visuals wherever the unleashes appear on the weapon pages themselves, I'd probably argue against the idea of individual unleash pages because they're ultimately still *aspects* of the weapons themselves. The entire unleash concept amounts to each individual weapon having chances to cause different effects that have been pre-determined for that weapon by the developers; the Swift Sword having access to effects named Critical Strike, Spin Strike, and Sonic Smash doesn't seem that far removed from the idea that it has access to a +10 Jupiter Power bonus and 108 attack power, something that's covered perfectly sufficiently on the Swift Sword page itself, and a player would primarily care about how a weapon's set of unleashes, stats, and bonuses makes the overall weapon measure up as a choice for an equipped weapon in general. I could only imagine unleashes warranting their own page-space if a future Golden Sun game allowed you to choose and forge unleashes onto weapons by yourself, since it'd only be by that time when the individual unleash effects have been more defined as their own thing than a specific feature of specific weapons. As of these three games, I figure there would at most be "collection subpages" like what Hungry said, like perhaps "Unleash/Gallery of unleashes in Dark Dawn". Erik the Appreciator (talk) 16:40, 25 February 2014 (CST)

I can understand Marandahir's reasoning for individual pages, Just because explaining each unleash on a single weapon's page is no longer the best way, since weapons have the same unleashes as of Dark Dawn. But I also agree that individual pages for unleashes may be a bit much. It would be difficult to flesh out a full page on each unleash. Ultimately, they are aspects of a given weapon, unlike summons. Though one could argue that Summons are merely aspects of Djinn, unlike weapons, the summons aren't tied to a specific djinni. I would think a "List of Unleashes" page may be appropriate though. PS: Erik, feel free to upload the gifs, the Wiki can handle it ;)~ dkpat (talk) 12:15, 26 February 2014 (CST)

Right, it does look like there isn't much more you can say about each Unleash than what's currently in each unleashes' row in Unleash/List_of_Unleashes, beyond an individual opinion about each - and the primary reason an individual page containing individual opinions on each unleash isn't as valuable as discussing on each weapon page how each of the weapon's unleashes measure up against each other is that unleashes are based on the attack statistic - which each individual weapon also has its own value for. The Centurion unleashed by the Phaeton's Blade *does* have a different overall relevance than the Centurion unleashed by the Sol Blade due to how the Phaeton's Blade Centurion has less attack behind it, can be used by more adepts, and is the final unleash in the Phaeton's Blade unleash set, whereas with the Sol Blade, the fact it is the first learnable Unleash means there is a short time when you can only unleash that, which has its own strategic consideration. If there were a page on Centurion itself, the page would therefore contain only copy-and-paste information from each individual weapon page's individual discussions on what Centurion is like on it, due to the different relevance it has on each weapon.

I would propose splitting the List of Unleashes into GBA and Dark Dawn lists, and replacing the column full of GS, TLA, and DD acronyms with a column on the images - the static pngs on each GBA unleash and the 83 gifs on Dark Dawn. If there are ways to incorporate more prose-based information into the columns and merge existing columns to make room for that, we can discuss that. On the bottom of each weapon page can be an individual "Gallery of Dark Dawn unleashes" that contains each of the unleash gifs (and of course, that the weapons performing those unleashes in the gifs won't always be the same as the weapon the article's about isn't any concern). Erik the Appreciator (talk) 12:57, 26 February 2014 (CST)

Obsolete Categories? And ideas for new ones

I was just looking through some of the sub-categories under the Items category and came across a few Weapon-based categories that I don't think we need any more. Ironically, they all have to do with Unleashes.

First of all, we have Category:Weapons with Unleash effects and Category:Weapons without Unleash effects. Now, this might have worked back in "the good ol' days," but now that Unleashes are the norm rather than the exception, both categories seem out-of-date. In fact, even back in the GBA games, almost all weapons could be sorted into three categories: Common (non-Artifact) weapons, Usable weapons, and weapons with Unleashes. I can understand keeping a category for weapons that lacked an Unleash back in the GBA days (although I'd recommend a different category name, like Category:GBA Weapons without Unleashes), but I think it's time to let go of the "Weapons with Unleashes" cat.

Second, I noticed we have categories for Unleashes of certain elements, such as Category:Mars-based Unleash effects and Category:Jupiter-based Unleash effects. The thing is, we already have categories like Category:Mars-based offenses - which, I notice, Mars-based Unleashes is a sub-category of, which is good, but I wonder if we even need these categories in the first place (the elemental Unleash categories, mind you, not the elemental offenses categories). I'm okay with keeping them, mind you, but if we do keep them, I'd recommend revising them a bit. After all, they were made back when Unleashes were weapon-specific. At the very least, I'd like to rename them something like Category:Weapons with Mars-based Unleashes (and maybe toss a cat in for non-elemental Unleashes...)

Anyways, I have an idea for a few new Weapon/Unleash-based categories: With the new Unleash system, every weapon has at least one Unleash and can have up to four. It may be worthwhile to create categories to reflect this, such as Category:Weapons with one Unleash and Category:Weapons with two Unleashes, and so on. And before anyone brings it up, the "One Unleash" category wouldn't apply to the GBA games, since weapons couldn't have more than one Unleash back then ;P

I'm probably not going to do anything about those categories until I get some feedback, so in the meantime I'm going to make less objectionable adjustments to pre-existing item-based categories (since I seem to be doing a lot of item-based work on the wiki lately), starting with the elemental offenses categories (yes, I realize that they aren't intrinsically linked to items, but now that they've popped into my mind I want to make sure they're complete and accurate).

P.S. How does a simple Category:Weapon Unleashes sound? It probably wouldn't get put on many articles, but it would be a good way to keep all the Unleash-based categories in one nice, neat place without cluttering up the Weapons category. You know, a category mainly meant for other categories... The World's Hungriest Paperweight 15:11, 20 April 2011 (CDT)

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Well, nobody's objected to my suggestions, which in the past usually means I can go ahead. However, I think there were a lot of edits right after I originally posted this (not to mention it was nearly a month ago), so I don't know if anyone saw/remembers this. Plus, there are a few adjustments I'd like to make. So for a quick recap:

• Category:Unleashes - There probably won't be many actual articles in this category, but it's meant to act as a supercategory in the first place.
• Replace Category:Weapons with/without Unleash effects with Category:GBA Weapons with/without Unleashes: I originally suggested getting rid of them entirely, but, in retrospect, these categories are the quickest way for us to find out which weapons had or lacked Unleashes, so I guess they're not completely worthless. Still, the changes in Dark Dawn make a name change mandatory.
• Replace Category:[Element]-based Unleash effects with Category:Weapons with [Element]-based Unleashes: Mostly because the name is more accurate, and that's before considering that a single weapon may now have two or three different elements of Unleashes. Also, a category for weapons with non-elemental Unleashes.
• Category:Weapons with [number] Unleash(es): Since weapons can now have anywhere from one to four Unleashes. Like the "GBA with/without" categories, these would probably be used more for reference than practical navigation, but I can't imagine there would be much objection.

Anyways, I'm going to go make the "number of Unleashes" categories, the "non-elemental Unleashes" category, and the "Unleashes" supercategory. If anyone has objections to the name changes of pre-existing categories, you have about 24 hours before I start on them. Oh, and I'm probably not going to actually add the categories to articles until they're all made, that way we'll (hopefully) only have to edit each page once. The World's Hungriest Paperweight 11:10, 16 May 2011 (CDT)

I agree with everything in this second section, and I don't think I have anything to add beyond deciding that, for pure-element weapons that have neutral unleashes that get turned into that element, those weapons shouldn't have the non-elemental Unleash category. Erik the Appreciator 12:21, 16 May 2011 (CDT)

Ooh! I hadn't even thought about those weapons. Good catch! By the way - and I realize this doesn't have much to do with Unleashes, but since the subject has come up - it seems we don't have a category for pure-element weapons. We should probably make one, but should we have a single category (such as Category:Pure-element weapons) or separate categories for each element? I'd suggest the former, since I can't imagine there would be very many of them, but that's probably not enough justification. If we go with the latter, I'm torn between names like Category:Venus-based weapons and Category:Pure-Venus weapons. I'd like some feedback soon, that way I can make the categor(y/ies) in time to add it/them alongside the Unleash categories. The World's Hungriest Paperweight 15:09, 16 May 2011 (CDT)

This all sounds good, and I also agree with grouping all pure-element weapons together. I've checked, and there aren't enough of them to justify separate categories. The one thing I disagree with is the category based on GBA Unleashes. It seems far simpler to ignore Unleashes altogether with regard to that and simply separate out common weapons. And even then, that purpose is already largely served with the common equipment category. The only items that would be left behind by that classification are already in a separate category as Usable equipment. --TheOthin 15:27, 16 May 2011 (CDT)

Well, that was my original idea (just dumping the old "with/without Unleashes" categories), so I'm fine with that. Still, I think I'd like to hear someone else's opinion before we decide for sure, just to see if anyone disagrees. The World's Hungriest Paperweight 16:06, 16 May 2011 (CDT)

I doubt I have any objections... Erik the Appreciator 16:55, 16 May 2011 (CDT)

Multipliers versus Fixed Increases

First of all, I started another discussion above, but the Recent Changes filled up shortly afterwards so I don't know if anyone saw it. But that's not why I'm posting this. Right now, I want to know if we know for sure that Unleashes from the GBA games still increase attack power by a fixed value in DD. Considering how many new Unleashes have damage multipliers, it would make more sense (to me, at least) for all the Unleashes to be changed to multipliers. So, I repeat, do we know that the old Unleashes returning in DD don't use multipliers now? The World's Hungriest Paperweight 12:20, 26 April 2011 (CDT)

For that matter, I don't know what the source is for all the data on the new unleashes either. I've only been assuming that whoever made the full List of Unleashes has had a source... So until then, I could go out on a limb and rant we don't know anything about whether any Unleash in DD, old or new, is fixed damage or multiplier and all of our writing on weapons is based on pure assumption. =)

Offhand, I'd just like to express that having new unleashes mostly be multipliers while keeping all old unleashes at fixed damage increases would make sense in its own way - that's one way to create a balance between the two types of damage increase. Erik the Appreciator 13:02, 26 April 2011 (CDT)

Okay, so on GameFAQs I found this board post where the user that had created the List of Unleashes seems to prove through comprehensive experimentation and calculations that all of the TLA unleashes remain exactly the same fixed addition bonuses as before, and many Unleashes introduced in the game are multipliers. I would place my trust in this. Erik the Appreciator 13:54, 26 April 2011 (CDT)

Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you on which method is more "balanced" (maybe if there were a 100% chance of old Unleashes' secondary effects activating...). But that source looks good enough for me ;) The World's Hungriest Paperweight 10:44, 28 April 2011 (CDT)

Unleash rates

A few things I would like to bring up for DD. One, I'm not certain but I have often noticed that characters seem to unleash more often after mastering a weapon. This could be false but I just want to be sure. Second, I have noticed that some unleashes seem to activate more frequently than others, with the relative rates possibly being dependent on mastery. For example, after mastering the Darksword, I found that it rarely ever unleashed Mortal Danger. Tzion 22:02, 18 August 2011 (CDT)

I think I've seen the weapon-mastery-equals-more-Unleashes bit brought up elsewhere, so it's probably true. The problem is proving it, and I don't like putting something we can't prove in the wiki. The part about "weaker" Unleashes occuring less often is new, though (or at least, new to me), so it's something we'll want to keep an eye on ;) The World's Hungriest Paperweight 11:07, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

Something I've noticed

I noticed a while back that someone put in the Sagittarius Bow article of the potential for downgraded attack if Amiti or Karis had been equipped with light blades. I got the Bow today so I tested it out. When I equipped the Bow on Amiti, he had no mastery over the bow. His attack dropped a few points to 551. As the experience went up, so did his attack, to about 578 or so once the Bow was mastered. It would probably be worth some more testing, but it seems to appear, to some extent, that weapons experience does effect the attack bonus the weapon gives. --Sippyjuice 16:56, 6 December 2011 (CST)

I'm a bit pre-occupied and can't check right away, but I think a similar topic was started elsewhere on the wiki. Try searching for something involving "Attack Factor". The World's Hungriest Paperweight 17:01, 6 December 2011 (CST)