Talk:Unleash/List of Unleashes

Thank you so much, spweasel! Why did you remove the weapon class entries, though? Is it possible to restore it from the previous page? I found it pretty helpful to look up the strongest axe unleash, for example. Kadano 13:37, 7 March 2011 (CST)
 * Here's the thing - unleashes usually aren't tied to a specific weapon class. Several (perhaps most) non-unique unleashes will be found on several different weapon types, which means that doing a sort based on weapon type isn't going to work unless each weapon class gets its own column (which would result in an ugly, unwieldy boolean matrix that adds very little functionality).


 * If you think that information is especially helpful (I do agree that it can be useful), I'd suggest adding the relevant table entries to the individual weapon list pages (e.g. List of Axes). That type of sorting is most useful when comparing different elements of the same group anyways, so it makes a lot of sense to put it on that group's page. Sort of like if you want all of a particular weapon's unleashes you should go to that individual weapon's page (since you can't really successfully sort by weapon name to find out all of a weapon's unleashes given this list).


 * Also, I really mean no offense to you, but I'm going to revert your last change for three reasons.


 * To the best of my knowledge, the average multiplier is only really known for Vengeance and Legend, with all the other entries being speculative.


 * How you have them currently written in the lists is wrong and confusing - the math is (Base + Add) x Mult, while it currently implies Base x Mult + Add.


 * It's redundant with the Special Effect column. This list should be for succinctly describing each unleash in detail. Forcing the list to accommodate information useful only to one small subset of unleashes isn't a good idea; otherwise we should add columns for average increase in damage from ignored defense, chance to apply status effect, etc. That sort of information really belongs in the Added Effects box.


 * I'll add the different rates for Vengeance/Legend so there will be no loss of information, only a slight loss in convenience.


 * As for Paperweight's most recent edit, I would like to point out that I was kinda hoping that someone would go in and replace every "Various" entry with the complete list of weapons that have that unleash. I'll try to add them all by the end of the day. spweasel 16:23, 7 March 2011 (CST)


 * Ah, hadn't realized that. I'd offer to lend a hand, but I'm worried I'd miss some ^_^; The World&#39;s Hungriest Paperweight 17:12, 7 March 2011 (CST)


 * 1) It's true that the other average mult mods are only speculative, but what reason is there not to include them? If the chances are 0.6/0.4 and not 0.5 each, the average mult mod would hardly change. Constant mult mods are listed, so why should varying not be listed? The concrete mult mod is random so I don't see a problem with using the average mod for effectivity / item optimization purposes at all.


 * 2) Actually, the math is Base x Mult + Add. At least according to TFergussons battle mechanics guide, which always seemed very accurate to me.


 * 3) If you sort the list by damage like it is now, multi-hit unleashes are entirely left behind. The average mult mod depends solely on chance and, unlike defense ignore, is inherent and thus list-worthy imo. There is a damage column, so every aspect of the unleashes that does not depend on outer factors (like opponent defense) should be taken into account.


 * Because of these reasons, I still believe that the way I changed it is better (unless TFergusson's damage calculation formula is wrong; if so, please tell me your source) as I don't see any of your arguments except that two entries are speculative (-> italic font and footnote?) being valid. Kadano 17:34, 7 March 2011 (CST)


 * Also, your latest edit in the Vengeance description suggests that if either of the mult mods procs, the add mod is deactivated (which is not the case). To be honest, I'd like to edit it back to the previous version, but I really don't want to start an edit war or something, so please reply to this. Kadano 17:43, 7 March 2011 (CST)


 * Terence's FAQ isn't "wrong" per se, but it fails to make an important distinction. The MMod he talks about and the multiplier used by Legend, et al, aren't the same. There are exactly zero attacks that increase both the MMod and AMod (to use his terminology). Some attacks have a special effect that multiplies the final damage by some amount, but no attacks use the formula he listed. In practice, this means that the formula is easier to understand as (Base + AMod) x MMod, where Legend et al change MMod. And yes, I've confirmed this thoroughly while testing unleashes for this list.


 * Furthermore, how you edited them in is incredibly confusing when combined with the Added Effects box. The only acceptable solution would be to add them as their own column. This means adding a column that does not add any additional information regarding the unleash itself, though, and only provides some additional convenience for sorting.


 * Multi-hit unleashes being "entirely left behind" is entirely irrelevant. The dynamic between multiplier and flat boost unleashes will change based on various factors, and simply because the current sorting method won't place those few unleashes with the "better" unleashes doesn't mean we should shoehorn them in. This wiki should be concerned with firstly presenting the data as it actually exists, and nowhere in the data is the number 2.2 directly connected with the Legend or Vengeance entries.


 * "Average" (statistical mean) multiplier is only even remotely useful for boss fights. For regular fights, the maximum value, statistical mode, and minimum value are the helpful numbers to know. Should we include columns for those as well?


 * Ultimately, the question becomes whether or not we should include data in the list that serves no purpose besides making it easier to make strategic decisions. The average multiplier does not describe the unleashes as they actually exist, they are a theoretical value that is sometimes useful for comparing the tactical value of some weapons. I'll fix the Vengeance entry if it's unclear, but that's hardly reason to go back to an inaccurate revision.


 * On a brighter note, I've gotten a list of what each "Various" means (farmed from NG_Absalom's Item List over at GameFAQs). I'll edit it in once I have the time (probably before the end of the night). Incidentally, Critical Strike's gonna need some sort of special treatment unless we want 29 weapons listed in that entry. I'm leaning towards footnote. spweasel 18:53, 7 March 2011 (CST)


 * Thank you for clearing this up, I didn't know that it works that way. I get your point; people who are interested in finding the unleash with the highest average damage output can still use this list. What exactly does Terence' formula apply to?


 * Also, Herculean Axe says that Olympus Rage has an add mod +76 and a mult mod 2. The result would be pretty close to the mult mod 2.4 that you found; are you sure that those values are incorrect? Kadano 00:45, 8 March 2011 (CST)
 * The Herculean Axe page was very wrong. I fixed it (at least as best I could at 3am). If there are any discrepancies between this list's numbers and a weapon page's numbers, that page should be changed to reflect this one - the only notable errors I think might have made it to this page are Sky Diver/Zenith Strike (I think they need to be increased by 1 each due to the game's rounding) and the Anpsi Knuckles' unleashes (x1.97 doesn't seem right, but it's too far off to just round to 2.0).


 * I haven't seen the source code, so I don't know if Terence's damage formula is more faithful to the coding or not. In practice, though, that formula is never used as far as I can tell; it is always (Damage + AMod), (Damage x MMod), or ((Damage + AMod) x Multihit Multiplier). spweasel 02:31, 8 March 2011 (CST)