Talk:Golden Sun series/Implications

Non-Adepts seeing Psynergy
Ikan and Kaba's ability to see Psynergy isn't unheard of. If you remember back to GS, Babi and Iodem could see it too but they never posessed Psynergy unless they had the Cloack Ball with them. Iodem describes it as "incredible" or something along those lines. Briggs can also see Psynergy. Obaba COULD be an adept, but she doesn't act like one, more of just a normal blacksmith. She's just a descendent of Ankhol. Chinkycandie 21:21, 16 April 2011


 * Babi and Iodem I vaguely remember, although I'll have to double-check exactly what they saw. As for Briggs, when did he ever comment on seeing Psynergy? And did Obaba, because I don't remember that, either? P.S. You forgot to sign. The World&#39;s Hungriest Paperweight 21:43, 16 April 2011 (CDT)


 * In TLA, after the batle with Briggs he states to Felix "Your strange powers overwhealmed me." He also states that Eoleo has strange powers when you Mind Read him in Prison and he seems to notice Eoleo trying to use Move on the key. He is also sure that he saw Matthew use Psynergy when you visit him in Port Rago.
 * As for Obaba, I never said she was an adept but her page did. She also asks "What are you? I thought my Salamander was invincible." Chinkycandie 21:59, 16 April 2011 (CDT)


 * I'm not convinced. First of all, most people can see the end result of Psynergy, so Briggs may have just been referring to the fireballs and windstorms thrown about by Felix and co. As for in DD, we don't know what exactly he saw. Maybe it was just the... Uhh, what's it called? The thing you use Grip on? He might have just seen it move, not the hand that pulled on it. Ikan and Kaba, however, specifically mention seeing the Psynergy as a kind of light, whereas Kaba's father couldn't see it.
 * As for Obaba, I'm going to have to go fix that. The World&#39;s Hungriest Paperweight 22:09, 16 April 2011 (CDT)
 * Wait, I just checked Obaba's page. It says that Obaba's not an Adept, so why did you say that her page says she is? And besides, just because she's shocked at her pet losing doesn't mean she can see Psynergy. The World&#39;s Hungriest Paperweight 22:11, 16 April 2011 (CDT)


 * Last time I checked her page it stated she was an adept.
 * As for Briggs' you have to Mind Read him. He doesn't see the light but he knows when someone is using Psynergy, like how he knew Eoleo was trying to free him. Chinkycandie 22:20, 16 April 2011 (CDT)


 * Obaba - Are you talking about the line that says: "While she displays considerable power when manipulating the forge, (specifically, the summoning of the Avimander), it does not appear that Obaba is an Adept, as she does not react when the player uses Psynergy."? Briggs - What sets Kaba and Ikan apart is the fact that they can see the light (no pun intended). Briggs can't. It's possible that Briggs has just been around Eoleo enough to recognize when he's up to something. That's more of a parent thing than a Psynergy thing. Anyways, I'm going to bed soon, so don't expect any more responses from me for about twelve hours. The World&#39;s Hungriest Paperweight 22:30, 16 April 2011 (CDT)


 * Thats the line I'm talking about. It was when I clicked "Random Page" that I got her page and it stated she was an adept (this was some time ago I might add XD). But its fixed now so no worries.
 * I can't remember where, but I do remember reading something how he knows Psynergy will be used by reading body movements. But yes, he cannot see the light.
 * That leaves another question though. Why can't the father see it? Just felt like skipping one person? Chinkycandie 22:54, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

(Resetting indent) Kaba's father: Perhaps we'll never know... Briggs and Eoleo: I found a script for TLA. I haven't found anything about reading body movements, but I looked up the scene where Eoleo tries to break Briggs out of prison. I don't see any dialog to suggest that Briggs can see Psynergy, only recognize when it's being used. Also, one of Briggs' men points out that Felix is present, suggesting that the other pirates know about Eoleo's powers, as well. I don't know if any of that is important, but I thought it was worth mentioning. And now, back to a point we left behind... Babi and Iodem: Here's a script for GS. If you head down to the cutscene after Colosso, Iodem is only able to see Psynergy because of the Cloak Ball. While I won't deny that those two saw Psynergy, I think that's more because Babi learned a few Psynergy tricks of his own while in Lemuria, rather than their "Psynergy-sight" being an innate ability. Or were you referring to another part?

Either way, I just realized something: This entire conversation revolves around assuming that Kaba and Ikan are not secretly Adepts as well, which I think is much more likely ;) The World&#39;s Hungriest Paperweight 12:00, 17 April 2011 (CDT)


 * I don't remember where I read it but that's how Briggs knows someone is using Psynergy. It wasn't in the script. Its was another Wiki site. He probably leanred it from battling Felix and co as well as Eoleo's movements. Although he can't see it, he knows it will happen.


 * No, that was the part I was referring too. So holding something that bestows Psynergy is the cause of seeing Psynergy? :\ Chinkycandie 20:29, 17 April 2011 (CDT)


 * Briggs: Well, I wouldn't automatically trust everything said on any wiki, even ours. Everyone's prone to error, and that line could easily have been speculation mistaken for fact (or maybe not; do you remember where the other wiki was?) Cloak Ball: Maybe, maybe not. They didn't really explain it very well... -_- The World&#39;s Hungriest Paperweight 21:20, 17 April 2011 (CDT)


 * Hopefully the next game explains things further. It has to be in the making because we would like some answers. Chinkycandie 22:25, 17 April 2011 (CDT)

Eclipse Tower - Light or Dark?
An interesting theory, Erik. I'm not sure we have enough hints to support it, but it doesn't sound unreasonable, either. There is one point you brought up, however, that I don't quite agree with. You basically said that Eclipse Tower was designed to manipulate darkness, while I was always under the impression the Jenei built it to study and experiment with light.

Here's how I see it: Eclipse Tower is built to gather sunlight, which the Jenei would then study within the tower in the hope of learning how to manipulate it. Unfortunately, they had no idea that gathering the sunlight would cast a shadow across Weyard. So the Jenei and Exathi perfected their light-manipulating devices in order to build Apollo Sanctum and end the first Grave Eclipse.

Now, since we can only speculate on the exact events of the past, your theory is as legitimate as mine. I'm just not sure what logic or evidence led you to believe that Eclipse Tower was designed to experiment with Dark instead of Light (besides the Grave Eclipse itself, of course). The World&#39;s Hungriest Paperweight 17:30, 17 April 2011 (CDT)


 * Well, Ikan says the lines "The tower in Belinsk was a machine built by the ancients to advance their art of Alchemy. It was powered by light, but it worked too well." Then when Kraden ponders what the Jenei hoped to accomplish in starting Eclipse Tower up, he and Karis theorize that they were trying to do something beyond the four great elements one can't do with Psynergy, which Kraden says was "to manipulate the fundaments of darkness and light". The wording of this information and the big dark semi-sphere the Eclipse Tower emits from its base outward had suggested to me on the surface that, simply, it uses light to play around with dark. Though, I suppose that it's technically possible that it uses light to experiment with light instead, but I think the possibility is also established here that Eclipse Tower actually has to do with experimentation on both darkness and light, based on what Kraden had said.


 * Now, "they had no idea that gathering the sunlight would cast a shadow across Weyard"? Thing is, the shadow being cast across Weyard is specifically described as an unnatural darkness by Kraden at Belinsk's pier, and it isn't some shadow being cast down from above; it's this artificial-looking semi-sphere of vaguely purplish gas that gets emitted from one central point at the base of the tower, and it maintains its shape at all times and initially only covers most of the interior of Belinsk itself. You can see it at 6:00 onward of this YouTube video walkthrough. Then later, by the time the party sails far away from Belinsk, the semi-sphere has grown in size many many miles, and its shape on the world surface is a perfect circle with Eclipse Tower at its exact center.


 * All this control and preciseness suggests to me that the maintained shape of the darkness and its base at Eclipse Tower is precisely what the Eclipse Tower had been constructed to do - probably meaning that a contained and relatively small area of darkness is what the Jenei were hoping to achieve for study purposes - and that the way this ended up working far too well and became something much more than anyone bargained for is that all the light energy the tower was taking from Sol was making the dome colossal like it becomes in the game. ...Hmm, I guess that doesn't really discount that they didn't expect it to stretch across so much of Weyard, but I think I at least indicated that the core dark-area effect was the intended part. Erik the Appreciator 19:09, 17 April 2011 (CDT)


 * First of all, when I said "cast a shadow", I wasn't necessarily being literal. It could simply be that Eclipse Tower is drawing light in from all directions, resulting in the apparently-perfect sphere. I'm not saying that you're wrong; only that I don't think there's enough "evidence" to say, without a doubt, that Eclipse Tower was built primarily to experiment with darkness. The World&#39;s Hungriest Paperweight 19:18, 17 April 2011 (CDT)


 * All this does kind of establish that even though Eclipse Tower has everything to do with darkness, it's never stated outright whether it's the dark or the light it's specifically experimenting with. So, there should be some edit made to accomodate all this. Erik the Appreciator 19:33, 17 April 2011 (CDT)

Source of Apollo's light
I personally find it strange that a building exists that contains as much light energy as the Apollo Sanctum in the middle of the light draining Eclipse. Since it seems the eclipse is required to use the Apollo Lens, perhaps the Sanctum was built to hold the light harnessed by Luna Tower while the lens itself is powered by the Alchemy Forge and Well for the purpose of channeling that light. Based of information gained by using spirit sense on graves in Harapa, it sounds as if their is a specific light capacity that the tower can absorb. By firing the Lens at the Tower, the resulting loop and the intensity of the beam would "trick" the tower into shutting down and cause the light to be subsequently released. This could also explain why the sanctum seems to go dark right before firing and why it can't be used anymore: it has no ammo to fire. Tzion 02:17, 4 May 2011 (CDT)


 * Hot damn, that would be a big implication granting this possibility. Now, first of all, Himi establishes how the Eclipse Tower is filling itself with the light it steals, and once it gathers enough light it will release it all in a cataclysmic burst. She says that if the light going into the tower is amplified with the Apollo Lens, the machine will be forced to stop. The Harapa gravestone doesn't exactly give any extra information beyond essentially restating the first part - it thinks "I can't believe some fool went and reactivated the Eclipse Tower. If you don't learn from history... How long will it be, I wonder, before the tower absorbs enough light and finally turns itself off again?" Regardless, these lines to me kind of make it sound like any light the tower is stealing is being held in the tower itself - that's how normal people playing the game would most likely have cross their minds the first time playing based on the information that's provided to them - and while the possibility's open that the Apollo Sanctum is what the tower is using as a remote repository for the light itself, I really doubt there's any text in the game to hint at this.


 * The other thing I'm suspicious of is the claim that the sanctum's darkening shortly before the Lens fires is meant to be taken as an actual depiction of the light of Apollo Sanctum being used up as the weapon's ammunition. When this darkening effect occurs, the background goes from almost-white to pitch-black over a half second, right after Volechek says farewell and before he actually starts to do anything with raising his/the statue's arm to fire the lens. It's also not like the sanctum's brightness gets sucked out so that little can be seen; the background turns to a flat black screen while all of the architecture and characters don't have any differences in lighting at all. These suggest to me that the blackening of the background isn't even a plot occurrence being observed by the characters, and is actually a strictly dramatic effect the game and story itself is using to emphasize and symbolize Volechek's self-sacrifice.


 * Lastly, note that the idea of the Lens not being able to be used anymore after being fired once is not implied anywhere in the actual game, nor is it stated outright that it can't be used anymore once the Grave Eclipse is erased. How the Apollo Lens works and can be used is precisely what's been one of the difficult things we tried to decipher and couldn't come up with a definitive answer for. So basically, all this really allows us to guess is that maybe the deadly amounts of light energy permeating the top of the lens is what the lens uses to fire, but I'm not sure if anything else is really implied... Erik the Appreciator 03:30, 4 May 2011 (CDT)


 * Not to burst your bubble, but, as I recall, the dark mists that represent the Grave Eclipse disappear as you get farther up Apollo Ascent. I think the light source can be explained simply as Apollo Sanctum being located above the spherical darkness generated by Eclipse Tower. As for what might happen if the Grave Eclipse enveloped Apollo Sanctum... Well, let's just be glad it never came to that. The World&#39;s Hungriest Paperweight 17:18, 4 May 2011 (CDT)

Anemos theory
I was thinking about the legend that says that the Moon is the city of Anemos. Near Contigo [Mitdir in Spanish title ;)] there´s the crater where Anemos supposed to be in the past.

Sheba origin still untold, but everyone knows that she fells from the sky, and like Ivan, have purple eyebrows and the particular skill to Read Mind that few Jupiter adepts inherits.

Ok, that´s not new, but... what kind of relation can save Anemos (suppossing that is the Moon) with Luna-Eclipse Tower?

At first I´ve thought that the tower is a way to bring Anemos back to Weyard, but is the Moon stucked during the Grave Eclipse? This detail isn´t shown neither.

Alchemy seal have only affected to the main four elements. After Golden Sun, Alchemy comes back and Weyard start to expand itself, or better said, to recover its true form, but Light and Dark elements still in "secret" and in some way sealed like other four.

Now this is what I speculate about the storyline around Anemos, and in some way sounds strange because is really early to talk about, but only a supposition:

Anemos may have some match with Tuaparang, the Dark Clan. Possibly most of their civilians were Jupiter and Dark Adepts (that would explain Mind Read particularity and eyebrows).

Dark adepts in the past probably were dangerous, they had the ability to create flying artifacts (Dark Dawn Intro) and the ability to nullify other element Psinergy through vortexes.

In a possible war with them, the Jenei created the Alchemy Artifact to avoid a possible invasion of Darkness (that artifacts emits light when its dark) and a possible reversal system (you can reverse the functionality of this devices in emergency cases).

When Artifacts were ready, they used Alchemy to send Anemos to the skies, sealing the Dark adepts far from Weyard.

Jenei possibly were Light adepts in the past, they also sealed the Luna Tower that can bring Anemos back during an eclipse (revert system). Finally, they created the Apollo´s Lens and the three gems. Light Element was sealed in Apollo´s temple, and this is the reason of the powerful light inside.

Beastmen are sensibles to full moon, or in other words, can be easily influenced by Dark and Light elements exposured (Dark Volchek and Blonde Light Beastmen). With their help, the Jenei made Umbra Suit and the three Gems to be able to reach the Apollo´s Lens, for release Light element in emergency case.

Beastmen gave the Suit and the three gems to the people of Izumo, so they distributed the Suit through the oriental part of Weyard. That´s the reason because they have the map of the Suit. They also hidden the gems that will allow to reach and activate the Lens. After this, the people of Izumo, most of them Venus adepts, created the Third Eye imbuing it with their predictive skills that allows to future generations knows about the the hidden secrets and the three Gems. That´s would answers why Uzume predicted the disasters and why Third Eye casually chooses Himi.

After this, the Stars and Lighthouses where created in different points of Weyard. The Alchemy was sealed to avoid new wars because a bad usage of it. Now Anemos flying artifact cannot work without Wind Element, so they cannot be back. They could seal only Wind Element, but Weyard and life will not survive without elemental equilibrium (explained in TLA). The Wise Man sealed the Elements in the Elemental Stars inside Mt. Alepth, the center of Weyard. He also created a Philosopher´s Stone using itself and transferring all his knowledge. This maybe how The Wise One was created and why it´s called as "he" and both are called "The Wise". He and Vale´s adepts must to keep safe the Elemental Stars, only when Weyard needs it, Alchemy will be released again.

Coming back to Contigo, some of Anemos people stills there. The Shamans, in an act of frightening, started a war with Contigo. When concluded, they stated the peace through the Shaman´s Rod, so that´s was the guarantee to trust that they will not release the Wind Element and bring Anemos back.

They knows that someday, Weyard will need the Alchemy back. Reached that moment, the future generations have to affront this destiny. That´s like a prophecy that people in Contigo knows.

In a far future, Ivan borns, a descendant of Anemos civilization, but soon Weyard starts to change. The Elements are required to recover Weyard and Prox is the first city to suffer this changes.

This disasters are the told misfortunes that Ivan´s mother, Hama and the people of Contigo means.

Knowing that some years later someone will take the Elemental Stars, the people trust on a visitor merchant to raise Ivan and let him help to Vale´s people three years after Mt. Alept erupts. They will need Ivan´s help and the Shaman´s Rod.

This is the beginning of the games.

In Dark Dawn Karis says that Ivan think in Mind Read as a curse, he´s probably sure about concernment of Anemos as a cursed heritage, causing troubles to his family in the past.