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Is going to be a fourth golden sun game?(Probably Spoilers)

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With the possibility of new Light and Dark Adepts, the whole 1-2 of each type is probably going to no longer exist, so would people be interested in having a playable character who isn't an Adept at all?

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Light and Dark adepts
I want to play them so bad. I want to see what kind of attacks they'd have.

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Ugg, I do not look forward to Sol/Luna adepts. I personally think they were a very bad addition to the series - simply put, it didn't need them. One of the reasons I loved the GBA games was that Sol and Luna (light and darkness respectively) appeared to simply be symbolic, and I really loved that approach.

However, introducing Light/Darkness... just seemed like a bad idea, much like most of the rest of Dark Dawn. Trying to appease too many people, rather than telling the story you want to tell. I hope they stay NPCs... I mean, it's not like we have Fundamental Djinn.

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I think in the next game we will use dark and light adepts to find out more about the tuaprang. I know there will be another game thow they left to many ansers well unansered

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color

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Perhaps then you could elaborate a bit more. If we'll have playable sol and luna, we'll need respective djinn for their classes due to how the game's system works, and if we get fundamental djinn, then that expands the class system by a great deal. What types of new mechanics and expansions would you be interested in to compliment and support the otherwise bland addition of light and dark?

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you're right!
Quote: Aug 25th 7:13 am
With the possibility of new Light and Dark Adepts, the whole 1-2 of each type is probably going to no longer exist, so would people be interested in having a playable character who isn't an Adept at all?


thats actually a good idea now that you brought it up; however, in the next game thw main character a likely to be the same (the three main ones: Matthew, Tyrell, Karis) and if thats the case the others will most likely be the same too. so my concern is: where will the non-adapt character go?

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Not so fast - as pointed out before, this game's battle system revolves around the djinn-based class system. How would you handle Sol and Luna adepts, then, without appropriate djinn? And how would an inept be handled at all, given that they have no spells by very definition (thus, the use of the class system would be mostly wasted on them)?

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Quote:Rolina Nov 25th 12:42 pm
Not so fast - as pointed out before, this game's battle system revolves around the djinn-based class system. How would you handle Sol and Luna adepts, then, without appropriate djinn? And how would an inept be handled at all, given that they have no spells by very definition (thus, the use of the class system would be mostly wasted on them)?

An inept would have no class system and only a light /dark adept can set light/dark djinn also im very much looking forward to the next golden sun (but i swear they better come out with it soon or ima bust so heads! )

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...And thus, the Sol Adept, the Luna Adept, and the Inept are gonna be benched unless their classes are OP. That basically means that the Adepts only have 2 class lines (Base and Dual Symbiotic, assuming Light and Dark are symbiotic of one another - if not, Dual Opposite will be the second line). As a result, they're very horribly typecast, and thus unable to work well with the rest of the team.

In order for any of them to be viable, all adepts will need to share all djinn types, which brings up another problem - what is symbiotic to what? If we shift to a trinity of symbiotic elements, would it be Venus and Mars with Sol, and Mercury and Jupiter with Luna, or would we start getting some complicated thing that makes strange attemts to connect Venus with Luna and Mars with Sol? How then would classes be handled? There'd be a much wider array, sure, but then what? Do you just treat Sol and Luna like Elements? Are they just totally blown off with their separate status? Making them exclusive to one another just won't work in terms of classes.

Having a playable inept is a bad idea, plain and simple - No classes, no spells, just attack and item, that's it. In most games like that, these characters are avoided quite often in favor of those who at least have spells or techniques or something, and because of that, as well as his utter inability to change his role in battle, this renders him useless in the long run.

Sometimes, things can seem really cool, but when you stop and think about what you have to do to achieve it it'll just wind up giving you a headache trying to figure it out.

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How about two new djinn types like dark djinn and light djinn for light and dark adepts who have their own class abilitys like chaos strike for dark adepts and judgement strike for light adepts and those will be the starting characters and you choose which you want to be

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You say that like it's simple. But do you really understand all that'd go into the class system as a direct consequence? That is a HUGE expansion of the class system for two things that aren't even elements. You're probably thinking "but light and dark are cool!", but to me, Light and Dark say "These break lore and are a pain in the arse to implement".

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Quote:Rolina Mar 9th 7:32 pm
You say that like it's simple. But do you really understand all that'd go into the class system as a direct consequence? That is a HUGE expansion of the class system for two things that aren't even elements. You're probably thinking "but light and dark are cool!", but to me, Light and Dark say "These break lore and are a pain in the arse to implement".


I see what you're saying as well, but I've personally been putting some work into how it might work. Now yes, having Umbra and Apollo adepts would definitely be difficult, and there isn't any trace of Djinni for them (Seeing as that psynergy is completely man made as opposed to natural) I can see it working for enemies, such as the Tuaparang, because they were noted previously for being able to control darkness. I don't, however, see Apollo psynergy as a thing, seeing as the ONLY case of its existence is in the Apollo Lens, which needs to absorb solar energy before it can output anything.
I don't see any way of having non-adepts in a party... unless you maybe have monks with OP Attack and Defense and/or a person who has some uncanny ability to cause monsters to fall asleep or work on your side or something to that nature... I'm thinking along the lines of Final Fantasy III's Monk and Beastmaster classes, seeing as they were primarily physical classes. But yes, I do agree that unless the Umbra/Apollo adepts have no allignment-specific Djinn they can use and the Physical Classes can't use them at all, because to my knowledge every time a non-adept had one they kept them as a pet without knowing their power, and every time an adept or Psynergy user (Ex. Elder werewolf from TLA, don't remember his name, had a Jupiter Djinn) they would say how it increased their power.
All in all, I don't see Dark and Light being used except for plot elements, and non-adepts are kept in the same regard.

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...Sol and Luna, hun. Fire Clan of the north still use Mars, after all. You've gotta keep the naming conventions in tact, otherwise it breaks away from the style of lore too much.

Inepts I could see being done, though. A Full Caster has three weapons, and a strong command of psynergy - A Physical Adept has four weapons, and a lesser command of psynergy (though equal in strength, due to mixing it with physical skills). Logically, that'd leave an Inept the ability to use Five weapons, and likely any armor type of their choice (save ones that are gender/race locked). Statistically, they'd be similar to warriors. However, they'd have higher stats in regards to HP to keep things balanced. You can still give them djinn, and it'll affect their class (they'd even have an elemental affinity to keep in mind, though they won't be able to utilize it), but they can't use djinn or summons, have no spells to cast, and can't trigger unleashes, only standard criticals.

So why choose them? Well, obviously because they'd have better criticals. Imagine this:

If the standard adept has a critical modifier of, say something like this:

A third of the adept's level is used as the "Critical Number (CN)". When a critical hit lands, it adds CN to the final damage, multiplies it by 1.CN, and lowers the enemy's defense by CN%. So if they were Level 36, the results would be:

Enemy's defense -12%
+12 Added damage
Final damage multiplied by 1.12


More damage for sure, but nothing really spectacular compared to an unleash. But in the hands of a pure physical specialist that is the Inept, it would be two thirds of their level instead of just a third - twice as strong on paper, though a bit stronger in practice:

Enemy's defense -24%
+24 Added Damage
Final damage multiplied by 1.24


At level 99, it would look like this:

Adept:

Enemy defense -33%
+33 Added Damage
Final Damage multiplied by 1.33


Inept:

Enemy defense -66%
+66 Added Damage
Final Damage multiplied by 1.66


Now, this isn't how crits work in either the GBA or DD versions of the battle system, but it is one I'm currently toying with. The improved critical hits allows inepts to strike pretty well compared to the might of unleashes, and if we were to set up an Inept the way I'm working them into the GSAR at the moment, then it'd allow them to not only be a very viable option in Golden Sun, but something to seriously take into consideration - because with crits like that, and with all their crit+ gear going into standard critical hits since they can't unleash, they're actually the go-to fighter for high-defense enemies thanks to that great defense piercing effect crits would have. This, of course, also assumes a system where enemy defense is actually respectable, which DD most certainly did not have.

If we were to look at actual values, let's try this: Use the 999 cap of the GBA games, and the Great Dragon's 300 defense, and have the attacker be Level 99 (enemy level is irrelevant in these calculations). We will compare a Inept Critical to several unleashes:

Normal Damage: 349 damage, no elemental modifier (unless weapon elemental)
Adept Critical: 574 damage, no elemental modifier (unless weapon elemental)
Inept Critical: 854 damage, no elemental modifier (unless weapon elemental)
Megiddo:  1048 damage, +/- up to 50% due to Venus influence
Legend (Single): 422 Damage, +/- up to 50% due to Jupiter influence
Legend (Triple): 1267 Damage, +/- up to 50% due to Jupiter influence
Vengeance (Single): 422 Damage, +/- up to 50% due to Venus influence
Vengeance (Double): 845 Damage, +/- up to 50% due to Venus influence
Vengeance (Triple): 1267 Damage, +/- up to 50% due to Venus influence


So those "big three" (or big four, if you add centurion, which could be argued to be even stronger) are still very powerful, but look at the Vengance values - it's on par with Vengance's double trigger damage - in fact, likely exceeding it, given that Venus is the rarest weakness in the game. Plus, also consider that these unleashes are still somewhat OP, and that in a more balanced game the multipliers they trigger would be scaled back (to say, 250% for Megiddo, 1x or 2x for Legend, and 1x, 1.5x, or 2x for Vengeance) and that means an Inept crit would be on par with an uber unleash at max level, effectively making them an even match statistically for an adept, and balancing them on paper.

Whether or not this follows lore, however, is another story entirely - it all depends on how they build it from here. Let's hope they don't just make inepts some useless normals.



Light and Dark, though, I see as being not a primary affinity like with the four elements, but rather a secondary affinity. This means you'd be associated with both an element and a fundament. This has its pros and cons, and has to really bend the lore that was introduced in Dark Dawn a bit in order to work well, but unlike DD's version they don't outright break the lore of the first two games. You can be both a Luna adept AND a Mercury adept - an in this case, what you'd be doing is specializing in Maledictions and the Lunar Aspect of Mercury (unless you use an alt class, of course - then you'd use the Lunar Aspect of those elements as well).
Edited On 10:14:51 PM - Fri, Apr 19th 2013 by Rolina

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I like the primary secondary thing.although what should happen is that you get a more powerful boost from Luna if combined with mercury and a more powerful boost of sol if combined with mars.


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